Resource BDSP OU Viability Rankings

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Welcome to the BDSP OU Viability Ranking thread. In this thread, we as a community will be ranking every single usable Pokemon into "tiers." You're encouraged to post your thoughts and opinions on the various Pokemon that are usable in BDSP OU and what tier they should fall under. Posts in this thread will be taken into account when deciding rank changes.

The general idea is to sort each OU Pokemon under rankings that go in descending order. Since this is a tier list for the entire metagame, everything is lumped together. There won't be any segregation between offense, defense, and supportive presences in the metagame within this thread. For example, Skarmory can be ranked in the A- tier as a supportive presence, Infernape can be ranked in A- as an offensive presence, and Blissey can be ranked in the A- tier as a defensive presence. While these three examples can also be found in the initial rankings, the viability of Pokemon and their roles within the metagame can and will change over time, so we will be sure to keep an open mind to this as well and adjust the thread accordingly during each update.

Finally, there will be a council of experienced players who will discuss and vote on the ranking of Pokemon. Depending on how the metagame is developing, we could update the thread every couple of weeks or every month+. Please note that your posts still very much matter and will be factored in to what we discuss and the discussions themselves. This thread is nothing without the posters and every informed opinion that is shared is considered a valuable contribution in my eyes, so do not hesitate to post if you know the metagame well and understand the forum rules. The council will consist of the following users:
BDSP OU Ranking Tier List

S Rank:

S Rank


:garchomp: Garchomp
:heatran: Heatran
:scizor: Scizor
:weavile: Weavile

A Rank:

A+ Rank


:clefable: Clefable
:latias: Latias
:starmie: Starmie

A Rank

:crawdaunt: Crawdaunt
:gliscor: Gliscor
:infernape: Infernape
:rotom-wash: Rotom-Wash
:tangrowth: Tangrowth

A- Rank

:alakazam: Alakazam
:azumarill: Azumarill
:blissey: Blissey
:celebi: Celebi
:dragonite: Dragonite
:lucario: Lucario
:magnezone: Magnezone
:mew: Mew
:milotic: Milotic
:nidoking: Nidoking
:roserade: Roserade
:suicune: Suicune
:togekiss: Togekiss

B Rank:

B+ Rank


:azelf: Azelf
:breloom: Breloom
:mamoswine: Mamoswine
:raikou: Raikou
:skarmory: Skarmory

B Rank

:entei: Entei
:heracross: Heracross
:feraligatr: Feraligatr
:mismagius: Mismagius
:quagsire: Quagsire
:salamence: Salamence
:slowbro: Slowbro
:slowking: Slowking
:staraptor: Staraptor

B- Rank

:empoleon: Empoleon
:gastrodon: Gastrodon
:gyarados: Gyarados
:jirachi: Jirachi
:kingdra: Kingdra
:medicham: Medicham
:rotom-mow: Rotom-Mow
:tyranitar: Tyranitar
:zapdos: Zapdos

C Rank:

:aerodactyl: Aerodactyl
:aggron: Aggron
:blastoise: Blastoise
:cresselia: Cresselia
:cloyster: Cloyster
:donphan: Donphan
:espeon: Espeon
:poliwrath: Poliwrath
:snorlax: Snorlax
:shaymin: Shaymin
:torkoal: Torkoal
:volbeat: Volbeat
:weezing: Weezing
:yanmega: Yanmega

Rules
  • Post intelligently. Posts like "I think pokemon X should be in this tier" will be deleted and infracted if it is a repeat issue. Expand on your opinion with actual analysis showing understanding of the metagame and perhaps bringing a unique perspective to the conversation.
  • Absolutely no flaming, personal attacks, or general idiocy will be tolerated. Part of this is under moderator discretion and please know that posting in this thread is a privilege, not a right. You'll get warned initially if it is not something overly malicious, but harsher punishments can and will come with repeated behavior or severe offenses.
  • Usage statistics may be used to support an argument or a claim, but don't base your ENTIRE argument around them. There needs to be more substance than just this. For example, you can't just say "Pokemon X shouldn't be this tier because they aren't used that often!"
  • When nominating a Pokemon to move from one rank to another, do not merely list its obvious qualities such as stats, typing, movepool, etc. If you think a Pokemon deserves to rise or drop, explain what has changed in the meta to cause such Pokemon to get better or worse. I can assure you that the VR Council already knows the obvious qualities and we are far more interested in understanding why you believe it has increased or decreased in viability.
  • Unrelated discussion such as talk of (potential) suspects and unproductive one liners that do not greatly contribute to discussion will be deleted. If this becomes a recurring issue for any particular user, then it could lead to an infraction. If you are unsure where to post something, feel free to start a conversation with the mod team on here or discord. Moreover, if you have a general question, then odds are it belongs in the SQSA, not here.
  • Being OU by usage alone does not guarantee a ranking. We touched on usage not being the sole reason behind viability of anything before, but this is very true here as a lot of things accumulate ladder usage despite not being the best option. Do not mistake the correlation between usage and viability as stronger than it actually is. If you have any further questions about this, please start a conversation with me on here or discord instead of posting it in this thread.
  • When new Pokemon, items, abilities, and/or anything else relevant to the BDSP OU metagame are released, please hold off on discussing the ranking of the new Pokemon or the rankings of Pokemon that are impacted by these developments until there is approval to discuss the matter by an BDSP Metagames Moderator in this thread.
  • Failure to follow these rules after warning(s) will result in an infraction or possibly a ban depending on the severity of the offenses.
  • If you are nominating a Pokemon to be ranked (meaning it was previously unranked), then you need to provide replays of it being used in the metagame and you also should go out of your way to be as thorough as possible in explaining why it has a niche in the metagame (Example of GOOD UR Nomination)--a vast majority of nominations have been of poor quality historically and we reserve the right to revoke nomination privileges from thread posters at any point in time. If you are in doubt, then feel free to start a conversation with me on here or discord prior to nominating a Pokemon and I will give you honest feedback on the post.
Blacklisted Pokemon: All posts regarding these Pokemon will be deleted (or nominations of these Pokemon will be removed)
  • N/A
 
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I would like to nominate Starmie to S-/S Rank. I personally believe it's the 2nd best mon in the entire tier after Scizor. But I'll take S- if need be as Starmie adds so much utility to every single team it's apart of that it should be a mainstay on every team. Some excellent bullet points for it.

1, Speed: Starmie has an excellent speed tier. Only being outsped by scarfers and weavile. This allows it to revenge kill nearly the entire tier, and with no pursuit in this gen, it's virtually unpunishable.

2, Power: Starmie has a ridiculous amount of power and strength. With it having access to Bolt Beam, Hydro Pump and Psychic. Only the likes of Gastrodon and Shedninja can actually switch in on it as everything else is 2hko's by LO Analytic Starmie.

3, Utility: its undeniable that Starmie is the best spinner in the game. It beats every single spinblocker in the tier 1 on 1 and none of them can switch in on it. It also has access to Natural Cure, Thunder wave, Recover and Scald if you wanna go a more bulky annoyed set, that can be combined with any number of it's attacks and it's speed tier to customize Starmie into any role you need.

4, Rapid Spin: I know I already mentioned this but I'll mention it again. Rapid spin is IMO the best hazard removal tool in the metagame. Entry hazards are really strong in the current meta and you wanna keep as much of your own entry hazards on the field. So spinning is better than fogging, and Starmie is by far the best spinner in the tier.

I hope I made my case and you consider Starmie for S/S-

Also Sableye should definitely be ranked. I'm on mobile right now so can't post replays but will edit with explanation when I get home.
 
3, Utility: its undeniable that Starmie is the best spinner in the game. It beats every single spinblocker in the tier 1 on 1 and none of them can switch in on it. It also has access to Natural Cure, Thunder wave, Recover and Scald if you wanna go a more bulky annoyed set, that can be combined with any number of it's attacks and it's speed tier to customize Starmie into any role you need.
It doesn't. Scarf Gengar easily beats it 1v1, Mismagius needs significant prior damage for Starmie to KO it with Hydro Pump, and Starmie can't touch Shedinja at all. Froslass can be EV'd to survive its Hydro Pump and proceed to Icy Wind + Shadow Ball. You're right that they can't switch in, but it doesn't beat them 1v1 without significant prior damage and/or good prediction, even on a free switch. A bulky set sounds like it would easily exacerbate these matchups and would look to be outclassed by many Defog users and even Donphan. That being said, it is an excellent Pokemon. It can even operate without Rapid Spin through the virtue of its good movepool along with analytic. There are just many teams for which another Pokemon that can fulfill its primary roles in a way that better matches the team. I think A+ is fine.
 
It doesn't. Scarf Gengar easily beats it 1v1, Mismagius needs significant prior damage for Starmie to KO it with Hydro Pump, and Starmie can't touch Shedinja at all. Froslass can be EV'd to survive its Hydro Pump and proceed to Icy Wind + Shadow Ball. You're right that they can't switch in, but it doesn't beat them 1v1 without significant prior damage and/or good prediction, even on a free switch. A bulky set sounds like it would easily exacerbate these matchups and would look to be outclassed by many Defog users and even Donphan. That being said, it is an excellent Pokemon. It can even operate without Rapid Spin through the virtue of its good movepool along with analytic. There are just many teams for which another Pokemon that can fulfill its primary roles in a way that better matches the team. I think A+ is fine.

Donphan does have access to utility moves like Thunder wave, recovery or even something as great as Scald. And you're right that I overexaggerated a bit in how it beats the spinblockers. However it is impossible to spinblock it. As none of the aforementioned spinblockers can switch in on its LO Analytic moves outside of shedninja and if it does get a spin up at all, it beats scarf Gengar as well.

Also its speed tier is just so valuable and let's it check so many things in the meta that it's crazy.
 

Sputnik

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I agree with most of this initial VR but to me there is one mon that is pretty out of place.

:ss/dragonite: B+ --> A-

Dragonite is significantly more threatening and consistent than the rest of the Pokemon in its tier currently and I think a rise is justified. Dragonite's set variation between Dragon Dance variants as well as Band and Specs sets also being good makes it a tough Pokemon to read from the get go (Specs is super good in my opinion and should be used more), and Multiscale utility can let you mess with traditional forms of offensive counterplay if you are at full health. Its typing is also great for staving off threats such as Infernape and you can at least midground against some other good Pokemon such as Rotom-C and Breloom, which is fantastic utility to have in a metagame this offensive. Extreme Speed is also really cool for getting past certain forms of offensive counterplay, notably making Weavile's Ice Shard a non factor if it has been chipped. Dragonite is generally lower than most of A-, but Dragonite is overall far superior to choices like Tyranitar, Salamence, Jirachi, and Mew in my opinion and does not belong in the same tier as them.
 
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:ss/Lucario: B to A-

Lucario is very underrated in my opinion. Most of the meta struggles to handle Lucario defensively and it holds up fairly well against many faster threats. As a preface, my main argument is that Lucario’s initial placement is too low, as the meta hasn’t shifted significantly enough for me to focus on that aspect.

Lucario @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Meteor Mash
- Extreme Speed

This set is excellent. We all know what it does honestly; I posted this set to establish what I believe is the best Lucario set right now. I prefer Jolly’s speed tier but the extra power of Adamant can be nice for Extreme Speed.

Anyway, Lucario deserves to be higher because its consistent damage output and many good matchups against the current meta staples make it fit in better with the A- inhabitants than those of B. Lucario’s dual STABs tear apart the majority of the meta after a boost, while Extreme Speed deals with Infernape, Latios, Alakazam, Manaphy, Breloom, and Starmie, provided they’re all weakened or Lucario has boosted.

Relative to Breloom, which is another prominent wallbreaker, I believe Lucario is slightly less viable. Breloom’s sets are less predictable, it’s usually stronger, and Spore is bullshit. However, Lucario’s niche, in comparison, is its higher speed tier (easily outpacing Heatran, Feraligatr, and Mamoswine) and better matchups against Skarmory, Tangrowth, Weavile, and fast Psychic-types. Basically, the two have comparable power and fill similar roles, but since Lucario isn’t quite as good as Breloom it warrants being a subrank lower.

I’ll probably write something about Yanmega here for C later. Specs tinted lens with dual stabs plus U-Turn is pretty nasty ngl.
 
:bw/rotom-wash: Rotom-Wash A+ to S- :bw/rotom-wash:
I was actually astounded that Rotom was not in the S range at all! It really feels like it has really set the standard for Electric types. Allow me to elaborate:
Rotom-Wash sports the most insane utility of any electric in the tier, while still packing a punch. Impressive for something with no arms!

Rotom is an Electric/Water type with Levitate: Meaning it's only weak to grass in a tier where Grass coverage isn't common and those who have it like Breloom and Manaphy don't want to switch into it. Things that do switch into it just get Volt switched with Rotom-Wash being probably the hardest Pokémon in the game to Volt block due to Will-O-Wisp ruining Garchomp, Donphan, Mamoswine, crippling Quagsire and (In some very rare cases) Gliscor but to be fair this is only when your opponent fucks up big time. Hydro pump nukes Donphan, Gliscor, Mamoswine, dents Garchomp and Quagsire along some other less mainstream grounds like the Nido twins and Hippowdon. Choice Scarf makes this Pokémon even more insane offensively as it now dents defensive Pokémon like Blissey and Quagsire which usually do not mind switching into it too much, especially the former: This improves the team's stall match up a lot as you force an uncomfortable Scarf Tangrowth or Blissey for example which is exploitable. Will-O-Wisp makes Shedinja think twice before pivoting into you. Water resists are just horribly downgraded this gen.

Its insane defensive utility and access to Will-O-Wisp allows it to check monsters including (but not limited to): Feraligatr, Crawdaunt, Azumarill, Weavile, Mamoswine, Scizor among others, while its amazing Choice Scarf set allows it to extend this list, now with a fast Will-O-Wisp and Volt switch it can check other monsters like Manaphy, Garchomp who are usually faster, while making it a GREAT anti-lead and an even greater speed control option outpacing the dangerous Feraligatr at +1 and everything below which includes Weavile, Alakazam and company allowing for better offensive counter play to these monsters!

In conclusion, a Pokémon with such Offensive-Defensive utility cannot be underestimated in my opinion, as Sticky hold Gastrodon is sometimes ran on Stall as a hardcounter which makes Rotom-Mow even funnier . It cannot be understated how meta defining Wash is, as a natural fit on any team with Scizor especially... Which sports a 50% usage rate. There are other options for Water-types such as Starmie, which sports better offensive utility and Rapid spin but Rotom-Wash still sets itself apart, as nothing does what it does.... Except Mow but that's worse defensively!!
 
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:bw/rotom-wash: Rotom-Wash A+ to S- :bw/rotom-wash:
I was actually astounded that Rotom was not in the S range at all! It really feels like it has really set the standard for Electric types. Allow me to elaborate:
Rotom-Wash sports the most insane utility of any electric in the tier, while still packing a punch. Impressive for something with no arms!
I'm not saying I entirely disagree but Rotom(-W) being the best Electric has less to do with it being so strong and more that it's the only Electric that didn't get significantly nerfed from its gen 4 counterpart. Every Electric lost Hidden Power and Zapdos got straight up gutted.
 
I'm not saying I entirely disagree but Rotom(-W) being the best Electric has less to do with it being so strong and more that it's the only Electric that didn't get significantly nerfed from its gen 4 counterpart. Every Electric lost Hidden Power and Zapdos got straight up gutted.
A lot of electrics were nerfed yes, and it's not hard for Rotom to compete with Magnezone & Raikou while others just suck lol electivire. I didn't mean to focus on "Rotom-Wash is the best electric!" in my post but rather tried to make a case of why it, as an electric, is so good which set the high bar for electrics: That was my intent on the post, was it badly worded/expressed?
 
I believe Sableye and Keckleon both deserve rankings, judging off their competition rankings here, I'd say Sable is at B+ or B and Keck is at B or B-.

Both are valued for their ability to counter special attacking threats, namely Gengar, Alakazam and Latios, while also providing additional useful utility. Sableye can spread priority burns and wall passive threats with Taunt, and spam Knock Off, while also function as a spin blocker able to beat both Starmie and Donphan. I went into great detail of Sableye's merits in the meta game discussion thread, and have provided some videos. I'll just quote myself here.

Professor Chaos



Sableye (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Knock Off
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt
- Recover

Math time!
No Heavy Duty Boots = hazards stack good again = Rapid Spin Starmie and Donphan good again = Sableye spinblocker good
No Heavy Duty Boots = hazards stack good again = Defog good = Taunt Sableye good
Screens HO Explosion Azelf good = Taunt Sableye good
Final Gambit leads good = Sableye good
Stall good = Taunt Sableye Stallbreaker good
Few Fairy types = Sableye good
Few Dark types = Will o' Wisp Sableye good
Gengar + Alakazam good = Sp Def Sableye good
Mach Punch Breloom and Extreme Speed Dragonite / Lucario good = Sableye good
Limited Knock Off = Sableye good

Sableye is just insanely good at disruption in this meta. Prankster gives it priority on Taunt, Will o' and Recover. It excels on hazard stack builds, which is why I chose to run it along with Spikes Skarmory, as it beats Starmie, Donphan, Forretress (anyone use that?) and with Taunt Defog Scizor and Empoleon and Latias. It beats Gengar. It drives stall crazy, walling Blissey, Skarmory, Knocking Off Leftovers on Clefable and Tangrowth, preventing recover and Taunt with hazards, burning everything. Gliscor and Heatran hate losing their items. Offense hates it too, as it prevents screen set up on Azelf, hazard set up, burns things that have already set up. I don't know what else to say. It's Sableye. He's chaos incarnate.

Just remember Prankster does not work on dark types like Tyranitar and Weavile, and it cant do much to Infernape, so when using Sableye, be sure to cover those weaknesses. I did not cover Infernape so well on my team, which is a big reason of why it still needed improvement.

-------------------------


Sableye just harassing this whole team really. I felt bad :(
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1469890733

Sableye doing more Sableye shit, whittling down Rotom, preventing offensive Starmie from spinning rocks showing its use on hazard stack builds. Otherwise, taunting, burning, Knock Off. Also a nice double with Espeon on Jirachi to keep Stealth Rock off the field.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1470014822

My favorite game with Espeon and Sableye against a very solid balance team. Manfuba gets a little sassy, so I start sassing back. He totally mocks Curse Espeon and proceeds to be wrecked by it, karma. Plus Sable messing up Gliscor and Scizor. Also illustrates how Sableye burning Defog Scizor helps Clefable break it, clearing an Espeon sweep.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1470072474-ekf1w82zojqvimgeiic0bdnv2e01vibpw

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Unfortunately I haven't been saving replays of my recent experimentations with Keckleon, but it works well as a nicely bulky offensive mon able to tailor itself to whatever its team needs and change its typing with Protean, which makes it extra difficult to play and predict around. Despite its unimpressive on paper attacking stats, run a Life Orb or Expert Belt and it can run physical, special or mixed sets as it gets STAB on all its impressively large amount of coverage attacks. The use of Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch let it bypass its low speed. It can even spinblock with Shadow Sneak! Keck also has the unique niche of being a Trick Room setter not weak to Gengar and can handle Dark types, Blissey and Heatran etc with Drain Punch.
 
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I believe Sableye and Keckleon both deserve rankings, judging off their competition rankings here, I'd say Sable is at B+ or B and Keck is at B or B-.

Both are valued for their ability to counter special attacking threats, namely Gengar, Alakazam and Latios, while also providing additional useful utility. Sableye can spread priority burns and wall passive threats with Taunt, and spam Knock Off, while also function as a spin blocker able to beat both Starmie and Donphan. I went into great detail of Sableye's merits in the meta game discussion thread, and have provided some videos. I'll just quote myself here.




----------------------------------------

Unfortunately I haven't been saving replays of my recent experimentations with Keckleon, but it works well as a nicely bulky offensive mon able to tailor itself to whatever its team needs and change its typing with Protean, which makes it extra difficult to play and predict around. Despite its unimpressive on paper attacking stats, run a Life Orb or Expert Belt and it can run physical, special or mixed sets as it gets STAB on all its impressively large amount of coverage attacks. The use of Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch let it bypass its low speed. It can even spinblock with Shadow Sneak! Keck also has the unique niche of being a Trick Room setter not weak to Gengar and can handle Dark types, Blissey and Heatran etc with Drain Punch.
I haven't used Kecleon ever, and I have never looked into it: so I will not be commenting on it.
However, I feel like you are only listing the positives of Sableye without going the debilitating weaknesses.
First and foremost, Sableye's stats are the equivalent of an NFE with a BST of 380, below pokémon like Graveller, Poliwhirl and Yanma have higher BSTS.
You might say "The BST doesn't matter as much, the distribution does" and I completely agree! Big examples being Clefable that doesn't even reach 500.
1642772507184.png

These stats are very badly distributed, Sableye's mediocre bulk means it cannot switch in on anything. It is notorious for taking half or more around every corner. While you might think this is passable because of its priority Recovers: It only means that you're giving up momentum without doing anything back. This is no issue for stall IF the pokémon reliably stops offensive threats: Sableye's mediocre 50/75/65 bulk does not. Spreading Knock off is handy but Gliscor and Tangrowth are VERY established Pokémon that do this way better as Poison heal and Regenerator respectively as well as their better stats allow them to function better. Taunt is also something Gliscor can do, and arguably Skarmory too. Will-O-Wisp is unique for it yes but Scald users like Mantine and Gastrodon can spread this anyway, not to mention it's not utility that stall really ever needs. To conclude Sableye's utility is outdone or unneeded by Stall. Not a good look.
Let's look into what it could beat defensively: Straight away you'd only think of Gengar and Alakazam. Well these are very dangerous to stall, checking them would be a big bonus you might say--

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 320-378 (105.2 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 220-259 (72.3 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

First: Gengar, straight up OHKO's with Life orb. Oneshots after rocks without. Specs two shots. You can see the issue, Sableye is once again too frail to check this Pokémon. This means you'll have to run Shadow sneak to try to beat it! That's no issue since getting rid of Gengar is huge for sta-

252+ Atk Sableye Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 152-180 (58.2 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Well... What about Sucker punch? That gets the one-shot: But this relies on a coinflip which is extremely bad especially if Gengar has substitute. And if you don't run attack investment it just doesn't oneshot after rocks mind you. (NOTE: Sableye has lost Encore, meaning it cannot beat Gengar by encoring it into Nasty plot if it tries to avoid Sucker punch.)
To offer a good alternative: Gastrodon beats Gengar as it threatens a oneshot with uninvested earthquake and it tanks Life orb Shadow ball even after a layer of spikes. It also hardcounters Scarf Rotom-Wash and every electric viable in the tier EXCEPT Rotom-Mow.

Second: Alakazam.

252+ Atk Sableye Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 186-222 (74.1 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not much to be said.. You take too much damage to check it semi-reliably- same as gengar.
To offer more proper counterplay to this Pokémon: Running Gliscor and Blissey or just Scizor and Blissey lets you scout its item and STAB move. This lets you play better versus it and reduces the risk of losing a Pokémon to it.

Fitting Sableye on any archetype that is not Stall is a far cry and an unrealistic thing to pull off as even if it works in theory... Its stats just limit it to lower tier territory.
NOT TO MENTION: Sableye is genuinely useless agaisnt opposing Gliscor **our most common ground**. Once Poison heal is up: It will infinitely farm Sableye for free turns for it to Earthquake it for free chip to waste recover PP and stack Poison heal healing which makes Gliscor just the more obnoxious to deal with. Making it effectively useless vs most offenses honestly... It's just too passive to get in position to be properly annoying and it's hardcountered by one of our best Pokémon in the tier.

Conclusion: I very do much encourage experimentation and exploration to develop the BDSP metagames. But in the case of Sableye: Its utility is undeniably VERY good on paper; But it just sucks too much defensively.. Until it's blessed with an evolution to hold Eviolite: I doubt it'll be ranked in the OU VR ever.
 
I haven't used Kecleon ever, and I have never looked into it: so I will not be commenting on it.
However, I feel like you are only listing the positives of Sableye without going the debilitating weaknesses.
First and foremost, Sableye's stats are the equivalent of an NFE with a BST of 380, below pokémon like Graveller, Poliwhirl and Yanma have higher BSTS.
You might say "The BST doesn't matter as much, the distribution does" and I completely agree! Big examples being Clefable that doesn't even reach 500.
View attachment 400189
These stats are very badly distributed, Sableye's mediocre bulk means it cannot switch in on anything. It is notorious for taking half or more around every corner. While you might think this is passable because of its priority Recovers: It only means that you're giving up momentum without doing anything back. This is no issue for stall IF the pokémon reliably stops offensive threats: Sableye's mediocre 50/75/65 bulk does not. Spreading Knock off is handy but Gliscor and Tangrowth are VERY established Pokémon that do this way better as Poison heal and Regenerator respectively as well as their better stats allow them to function better. Taunt is also something Gliscor can do, and arguably Skarmory too. Will-O-Wisp is unique for it yes but Scald users like Mantine and Gastrodon can spread this anyway, not to mention it's not utility that stall really ever needs. To conclude Sableye's utility is outdone or unneeded by Stall. Not a good look.
Let's look into what it could beat defensively: Straight away you'd only think of Gengar and Alakazam. Well these are very dangerous to stall, checking them would be a big bonus you might say--

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 320-378 (105.2 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 220-259 (72.3 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

First: Gengar, straight up OHKO's with Life orb. Oneshots after rocks without. Specs two shots. You can see the issue, Sableye is once again too frail to check this Pokémon. This means you'll have to run Shadow sneak to try to beat it! That's no issue since getting rid of Gengar is huge for sta-

252+ Atk Sableye Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 152-180 (58.2 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Well... What about Sucker punch? That gets the one-shot: But this relies on a coinflip which is extremely bad especially if Gengar has substitute. And if you don't run attack investment it just doesn't oneshot after rocks mind you. (NOTE: Sableye has lost Encore, meaning it cannot beat Gengar by encoring it into Nasty plot if it tries to avoid Sucker punch.)
To offer a good alternative: Gastrodon beats Gengar as it threatens a oneshot with uninvested earthquake and it tanks Life orb Shadow ball even after a layer of spikes. It also hardcounters Scarf Rotom-Wash and every electric viable in the tier EXCEPT Rotom-Mow.

Second: Alakazam.

252+ Atk Sableye Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 186-222 (74.1 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not much to be said.. You take too much damage to check it semi-reliably- same as gengar.
To offer more proper counterplay to this Pokémon: Running Gliscor and Blissey or just Scizor and Blissey lets you scout its item and STAB move. This lets you play better versus it and reduces the risk of losing a Pokémon to it.

Fitting Sableye on any archetype that is not Stall is a far cry and an unrealistic thing to pull off as even if it works in theory... Its stats just limit it to lower tier territory.
NOT TO MENTION: Sableye is genuinely useless agaisnt opposing Gliscor **our most common ground**. Once Poison heal is up: It will infinitely farm Sableye for free turns for it to Earthquake it for free chip to waste recover PP and stack Poison heal healing which makes Gliscor just the more obnoxious to deal with. Making it effectively useless vs most offenses honestly... It's just too passive to get in position to be properly annoying and it's hardcountered by one of our best Pokémon in the tier.

Conclusion: I very do much encourage experimentation and exploration to develop the BDSP metagames. But in the case of Sableye: Its utility is undeniably VERY good on paper; But it just sucks too much defensively.. Until it's blessed with an evolution to hold Eviolite: I doubt it'll be ranked in the OU VR ever.
I disagree, yes it's not the end all be all pokemon and I certainly don't think it deserves to be B/B+ rank like the guy above me. However I believe it deserves to be ranked as it does at least have a decent niche in the meta game on stall which is an amazing archetype at the moment.

It's a ghost type that loses to only 1 spinner (Starmie). That has access to priority taunt allowing it to block every defog user in the game (except Murkrow but like thats Murkrow). It also blocks set up attempts, cripples physical attackers with Willo Wisp.

As for the Gliscor matchup?

0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sableye: 132-156 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Sableye needs to specially defensive (worse set) and rocks need to be up for standard Gliscor to kill. Meanwhile Sableye can taunt to prevent the Defog/Sub/Swords dance and then switch to a partner who can easily take the Knock/EQ and KO Glis back.

Also for the Zam/Gengar Calcs? Yeah it can't switch in on + 2 Zam/Gengar, but you know what can't either?

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 56+ SpD Unaware Clefable: 359-424 (91.1 - 107.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 523-616 (73.2 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Nothing else in the entire tier, so I don't think thats much of a problem either.

It also has Knock off which is decently rare on stall and helps the entire team a ton. Not too mention, it helps the Gliscor matchup even more, considering now Gliscor needs to already be poisoned lest it switch in on Knock/Wilo and be crippled beyond useless.

Now I'm not saying that it's the best Pokémon in the tier. However, it has a decent niche on stall and balance teams as a good spinblocker, that can also block fog as well. And be a good annoyer with Wisp + Knock off. And I'd say that's enough for it to at least be C rank.
 
I disagree, yes it's not the end all be all pokemon and I certainly don't think it deserves to be B/B+ rank like the guy above me. However I believe it deserves to be ranked as it does at least have a decent niche in the meta game on stall which is an amazing archetype at the moment.
I am sorry but I do have to disagree with this, I'll go over your points one by one to show why I think it should stay unranked.

It's a ghost type that loses to only 1 spinner (Starmie). That has access to priority taunt allowing it to block every defog user in the game (except Murkrow but like thats Murkrow). It also blocks set up attempts, cripples physical attackers with Willo Wisp.
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Losing to one of two spinners is not a good look if you try to push for its viability... Especially when it's an established excellent Pokémon and also the 12th most used one in the tier. Not to mention losing your item to Donphan is very bad... Donphan also deals half to Sableye with earthquake.

Priority taunt is very handy, but Sableye has to already be out to prevent anything: This is the issue... Sableye is obnoxious to switch into (if you don't have Gliscor lmao) but getting it in is a NIGHTMARE. Not to mention that you'd take (YEP! You guessed it!) Half health or more if you get damaged on the Taunt instead of blocking a move.
It's just too frail, getting Sableye in the field without pivoting moves (Which stall doesn't wanna run) is a task and a half.
Priority Will-O-Wisp to go along with taunt is even better, but I'll just sound like a broken record if I go on.
Sableye is just too fragile to make its amazing moveset, typing and ability work.

As for the Gliscor matchup?

0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sableye: 132-156 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Sableye needs to specially defensive (worse set) and rocks need to be up for standard Gliscor to kill. Meanwhile Sableye can taunt to prevent the Defog/Sub/Swords dance and then switch to a partner who can easily take the Knock/EQ and KO Glis back.
The gliscor matchup for our mischievous pal is hilarious. You let Gliscor rack up Poison heal for no reason as you just taunt as it nearly two shots you with Earthquake.... If it's Knock off it'll just get the two shot even if you run Leftovers. And if you don't spam Recover (Common theme if you switch Sableye into something which risks being crit.) You can die eventually.
What do you do in return? You knock of its Toxic orb while its poisoned...? It can also generate free momentum on you by just U-turning on the taunt which you can't even punish with Wisp or Taunt... And this U-turn deals 25 I believe.

Also for the Zam/Gengar Calcs? Yeah it can't switch in on + 2 Zam/Gengar, but you know what can't either?

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 56+ SpD Unaware Clefable: 359-424 (91.1 - 107.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 523-616 (73.2 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Nothing else in the entire tier, so I don't think thats much of a problem either.
This is true! We lack proper counterplay for these two, I just wanted to emphasize that it checked absolutely nothing in the tier worth checking. And for this I provided alternatives in the original post to show that Stall has no reason to run it unless the user wants to run it.
Shadow ball Blissey can deter Gengar, but that's about it. I just wanted to show Sableye is truly very bad defensively.

It also has Knock off which is decently rare on stall and helps the entire team a ton. Not too mention, it helps the Gliscor matchup even more, considering now Gliscor needs to already be poisoned lest it switch in on Knock/Wilo and be crippled beyond useless.
Knock Off may be on only two stall Pokémon: But these are literally Tangrowth and Gliscor. You'll find either of these in nearly any stall.
Poliwrath may replace Tangrowth, Gastrodon may replace Gliscor, but even then that just proves Stall doesn't exactly NEED Knock off to justify a slot for Sableye even in the magical case where you want to run both.
It's not hard for Gliscor to set up Poison heal, One simple double switch or U-turn and voila. It's not worth justifying Sableye ever on a team for.
For a Gliscor hardcounter: Try Whirlwind Skarmory. Taunt goes a long way too in the SD Glis Match-Up.
Other options include Tangrowth, which deters Roosting on it meaning Gliscor can't muscle past it easily.
Poliwrath, who threatens to phaze it out and Scald it.
Shedinja as long as it lacks Knock off, you get the picture.
It's not hard to cover Gliscor.

Now I'm not saying that it's the best Pokémon in the tier. However, it has a decent niche on stall and balance teams as a good spinblocker, that can also block fog as well. And be a good annoyer with Wisp + Knock off. And I'd say that's enough for it to at least be C rank.
I do acknowledge that, but I think you very much do overestimate Sableye's defensive stats. It's too easy to think "Can a Pokémon do this?" and not "How consistently will it do this?"
Answer for Sableye being; Not very at all.
 
I am sorry but I do have to disagree with this, I'll go over your points one by one to show why I think it should stay unranked.



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Losing to one of two spinners is not a good look if you try to push for its viability... Especially when it's an established excellent Pokémon and also the 12th most used one in the tier. Not to mention losing your item to Donphan is very bad... Donphan also deals half to Sableye with earthquake.

Priority taunt is very handy, but Sableye has to already be out to prevent anything: This is the issue... Sableye is obnoxious to switch into (if you don't have Gliscor lmao) but getting it in is a NIGHTMARE. Not to mention that you'd take (YEP! You guessed it!) Half health or more if you get damaged on the Taunt instead of blocking a move.
It's just too frail, getting Sableye in the field without pivoting moves (Which stall doesn't wanna run) is a task and a half.
Priority Will-O-Wisp to go along with taunt is even better, but I'll just sound like a broken record if I go on.
Sableye is just too fragile to make its amazing moveset, typing and ability work.



The gliscor matchup for our mischievous pal is hilarious. You let Gliscor rack up Poison heal for no reason as you just taunt as it nearly two shots you with Earthquake.... If it's Knock off it'll just get the two shot even if you run Leftovers. And if you don't spam Recover (Common theme if you switch Sableye into something which risks being crit.) You can die eventually.
What do you do in return? You knock of its Toxic orb while its poisoned...? It can also generate free momentum on you by just U-turning on the taunt which you can't even punish with Wisp or Taunt... And this U-turn deals 25 I believe.



This is true! We lack proper counterplay for these two, I just wanted to emphasize that it checked absolutely nothing in the tier worth checking. And for this I provided alternatives in the original post to show that Stall has no reason to run it unless the user wants to run it.
Shadow ball Blissey can deter Gengar, but that's about it. I just wanted to show Sableye is truly very bad defensively.



Knock Off may be on only two stall Pokémon: But these are literally Tangrowth and Gliscor. You'll find either of these in nearly any stall.
Poliwrath may replace Tangrowth, Gastrodon may replace Gliscor, but even then that just proves Stall doesn't exactly NEED Knock off to justify a slot for Sableye even in the magical case where you want to run both.
It's not hard for Gliscor to set up Poison heal, One simple double switch or U-turn and voila. It's not worth justifying Sableye ever on a team for.
For a Gliscor hardcounter: Try Whirlwind Skarmory. Taunt goes a long way too in the SD Glis Match-Up.
Other options include Tangrowth, which deters Roosting on it meaning Gliscor can't muscle past it easily.
Poliwrath, who threatens to phaze it out and Scald it.
Shedinja as long as it lacks Knock off, you get the picture.
It's not hard to cover Gliscor.



I do acknowledge that, but I think you very much do overestimate Sableye's defensive stats. It's too easy to think "Can a Pokémon do this?" and not "How consistently will it do this?"
Answer for Sableye being; Not very at all.
Donphan doesn't beat Sableye at all. Yes Sableye takes 50% damage from EQ, however, it switches in takes an EQ. Burns the Donphan and then the Donphan is useless for the rest of the game whole the Sabeleye Recovers with priority Recover.

I do agree that losing to Starmie is bad however Starmie IMO is the second best mon in the tier so that's not that hard to lose to Starmie.

I'm not saying Sableye takes Gliscor on 1 vs 1. But he taunts, takes 30-40% from EQ and disables Gliscor from Roosting/Fogging allowing you to keep your hazards up. Then you switch into Skarm/Gastro/Mantine or just something that can beat Gliscor. And he if he U-turns they take Hella hazard damage.

And Skarm definitely doesn't beat Stall Breaker Gliscor. Who usually uses Taunt.

And you're talking about replacements? Who replaces Sableye as a spinblocker on stall? Shedninja? Well he loses to 1 of 2 spinners in the tier which is as of your own admission not good. And also loses to hazards as well. Gengar? Gengar is way to frail for what a stall team wants. Spiritomb? No recovery, loses to foggers, loses to Starmie and Donphan and Gliscor.

Again it's not gonna change the whole meta. However, it dies he a decent enough niche to be ranked and I think it has more of a use than the likes of Tentacruel and Shedninja the latter of which can only be used on the most specific of teams.
 
Edit: Sorry, my post got cut short. My kiddo wanted my attention.

It’s true, Sable’s bulk isn’t that great, on paper. In practice, you need to effectively double its defense because it can burn any physically attacker trying to hit it (barring a few mons I’ll get to), and priority Taunt / Recover let’s it stall stuff out. Trying to boost against it is a bad move since it has prior Taunt.

Max Sp Def Sableye (IMO best Sableye) beats both Starmie and Donphan. Calcs don’t take everything into account.

Sableye tanks an Analytic LO Hydro Pump. So it spams Recover until Hydro misses 30% remember) then kills with KO (which without priority, doesn’t activate Analytic). It tanks anything not HP with ease. Donphan? Will o Wisp and then Knock spam / Recover. Sable outlives it easily. Those hazards are staying if you aren’t braindead.

Teams get VERY predictable with they have Stealth Rock or a few layers of Spikes up. This is where Sable shines - bulky hazard stack.

Regarding Gliscor, 1v1 at game’s start, Gliscor obviously doesn’t want to stay in against Sable in fear of taking Knock or Burn. Mid game, sure, if Gliscor activates its orb, and admittedly playing around Sable can be done with moderately smart play, but in reality it’s still a stalemate of sorts. Sable prevents Gliscor from clearing hazards or using SD with Taunt, and if Gliscor is trying to generate momentum with U-Turn, what ever is switching in is A. taking hazard damage, and B. getting its item Knocked Off. Nothing in this meta wants to lose its item.

And what then after the switch in loses its item?

Special set up sweeper in? Taunt.
Hazard setter? Taunt.
Passive Wall? Taunt. Burn. Heal.
Magic Bouncer? Knock Off.
Physical attacker? Will o.

Heatran and Clefable HATE losing Lefties, and can both be Taunted at the the fact, so while they can technically switch in to Sable, its a catch 22 for them. The only reasonable things to switch in to Sable without fear (after taking Knock Off, mind you) from Gliscor are Dark types immune to Prankster and Infernape.

I would say Weavile, Infernape, and Crawdaunt are actually Sable’s 3 best counters, and all need to be accounted for when using Sable.

Otherwise, Gliscor is going to struggle to get momentum off Sable as whatever switches in is getting crippled.

Ultimately, Sable has legit unique niches in this meta. It spin blocks. It stallbreaks. It burns any physical attacker before they can hit it barring Darks/Infernape. And Knock Off is great as we all know. It beats unboosted Gengar and Alakazam lacking DG.

If extremely niche trash like Shedninja is ranked at C, Sableye should at the very least be higher than that.
 
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Lalaya

Banned deucer.
things im gonna say in blue
Edit: Sorry, my post got cut short. My kiddo wanted my attention.

It’s true, Sable’s bulk isn’t that great, on paper. In practice, you need to effectively double its defense because it can burn any physically attacker trying to hit it (barring a few mons I’ll get to), and priority Taunt / Recover let’s it stall stuff out. Trying to boost against it is a bad move since it has prior Taunt.
the first sentence is just plain wrong
but anyway, pretty sure the point is: you can't switch into most attackers lest you get annihilated by Meteors, Shadow Balls, Outrages, and so on


Max Sp Def Sableye (IMO best Sableye) beats both Starmie and Donphan. Calcs don’t take everything into account.
how?

Sableye tanks an Analytic LO Hydro Pump. So it spams Recover until Hydro misses 30% remember) then kills with KO (which without priority, doesn’t activate Analytic). It tanks anything not HP with ease. Donphan? Will o Wisp and then Knock spam / Recover. Sable outlives it easily. Those hazards are staying if you aren’t braindead.
Donphan: 252+ Atk Donphan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sableye: 216-255 (71 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
So... you can't switch in unless they're dumb enough to Spin, and if they EQ you you either can burn the Donphan and die (it does half, so it should minroll twice to not do 106% to you) or Recover and most likely die. welp.
unarguably better in a 1v1 scenario but you're switching in spinners to block them, so...

Starmie: 252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 239-282 (78.6 - 92.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
not counting rocks, if you recover you simply die from the next one (22+50+6 = 78, which is exactly what the minroll does; if you don't recover, you die anyway, so you definitely can't switch into offensive Starmie at all. You can win the 1v1, especially if it's Defensive Starmie, but id be desperate if you couldnt with a Knock and with full spdef, and regardless I don't wanna see "omg but it can miss" in any sort of argument for/against a Pokèmon's viability


Teams get VERY predictable with they have Stealth Rock or a few layers of Spikes up. This is where Sable shines - bulky hazard stack.
which is kinda the worst type of team to run right now but okaaaay...

Regarding Gliscor, 1v1 at game’s start, Gliscor obviously doesn’t want to stay in against Sable in fear of taking Knock or Burn. Mid game, sure, if Gliscor activates its orb, and admittedly playing around Sable can be done with moderately smart play, but in reality it’s still a stalemate of sorts. Sable prevents Gliscor from clearing hazards or using SD with Taunt, and if Gliscor is trying to generate momentum with U-Turn, what ever is switching in is A. taking hazard damage, and B. getting its item Knocked Off. Nothing in this meta wants to lose its item.
really? not having a knock absorber? like tran couldn't care less about item it can actually run anything other than lefties, like pherb or charcoal and you're getting roasted, for example
also tran burning you so you even stop getting lefties recovery MMMH


And what then after the switch in loses its item?

Special set up sweeper in? Taunt.
Hazard setter? Taunt.
Passive Wall? Taunt. Burn. Heal.
Magic Bouncer? Knock Off.
Physical attacker? Will o.

Heatran and Clefable HATE losing Lefties, and can both be Taunted at the the fact, so while they can technically switch in to Sable, its a catch 22 for them. The only reasonable things to switch in to Sable without fear (after taking Knock Off, mind you) from Gliscor are Dark types immune to Prankster and Infernape.
if you knock them, you don't prevent any sort of passive action from them (rocks, twave, heal); if you taunt, you're getting magmastormed or moonblasted in the face and either way it's a good trade depending on the situation

I would say Weavile, Infernape, and Crawdaunt are actually Sable’s 3 best counters, and all need to be accounted for when using Sable.
talk about small fries...

Otherwise, Gliscor is going to struggle to get momentum off Sable as whatever switches in is getting crippled.
im still not sure what you're gonna do when you're done knocking items but w/e arguably something like scizor gets momentum better, and honestly most of the time you can even get away with a burned scizor if all it needs to do is to grab momentum

Ultimately, Sable has legit unique niches in this meta. It spin blocks. It stallbreaks. It burns any physical attacker before they can hit it barring Darks/Infernape. And Knock Off is great as we all know. It beats unboosted Gengar and Alakazam lacking DG.
how in the world it beats gengar
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 161-191 (52.9 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
do you wanna recover until you get a drop? or let gengar plot so you instantly die the next turn? and you cant recover on the Specs one at all


If extremely niche trash like Shedninja is ranked at C, Sableye should at the very least be higher than that.
we literally have a shedstall in the samples that also is a testimony of how Shedinja beats common Pokèmon like Latios, Scizor, Breloom, Azumarill, Manaphy and the list can go on and on and I already said more than what Sableye currently *CHECKS*, because Sableye can't enter on ANYTHING

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 300-354 (98.6 - 116.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sableye: 270-320 (88.8 - 105.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sableye: 252-300 (82.8 - 98.6%) -- approx. 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sableye: 132-156 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (lol so much for recover stalling gliscor can literally waste the stab on you so you lose from anything else, esp if it has knock; if it has SD gg you lose)
252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 154-183 (50.6 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and trapping damage
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sableye: 242-286 (79.6 - 94%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Throat Chop vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sableye: 235-277 (77.3 - 91.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 229-270 (75.3 - 88.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

i can get the stallbreaking part (which until their Clef is alive it wont happen, but ofc Sableye surely helps there and I certainly won't ever deny that), but i genuinely don't get how in the world are you getting a good switchin unless you're using a pivot yourself, in which case why not... sending the actual counter? the only thing im getting is that Sableye could fit some stallcores and pretty much nothing else because you're just gonna get outoffense'd extremely quickly by the sheer amount of threats this meta has
and please, PLEASE use physdef sableye instead of the spdef one, it literally gives you nothing of value except a shaky Starmie 1v1er
while I definitely appreciate the sentiment in trying to evolve the meta with new things we might have overlooked, Sableye isn't one of them
not even gonna comment on Kecleon honestly
 
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I would like to nominate :azumarill: for A+ rank.

Azumarill is absolutely brutal in this current meta. The tried and true Belly Drum+Aqua Jet combo is deadly to weakened teams, as everyone is already aware of. Water/Fairy STAB off 436 attack is extremely difficult to switch in on, with only Tangrowth, Slowbro, Vileplume and Empoleon mustering up the courage to do so. The first two are absolutely destroyed by a Belly Drum followed by Play Rough, while Vileplume is rarely seen and not the best in this meta, and Emploeon can be worn down. A well played Azumarill will almost always claim a kill every match. Azumarill can also viably run a Choice Band set to surprise would be checks such as Unaware Clefable. Even the most physically defensive Clefable is 2HKOed by Choice Band Waterfall.

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 210-247 (53.2 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

In practice Unaware Clefable is a very shaky check to even Belly Drum Azumarill as it needs to stay healthy and spam recovery moves and even then a single crit or Waterfall flinch could result in Clefable failing to check Azumarill.

Furthermore, Azumarill is fairly easy to fit on teams, as with strong and often choice locked Dragons so dominant in the meta, a Fairy type commands a premium price on a team. Azumarill will often be the go-to dragon immunity for offensive and hyper offensive teams (as Clefable doesn't really fit on any style faster than balance). The very presence of Azumarill on a team prevents dangerous threats like Scarf/Band Garchomp and Specs Latios from tearing through the rest of the team with their strong dragon STAB.
 
:ss/Lucario: B to A-

Lucario is very underrated in my opinion. Most of the meta struggles to handle Lucario defensively and it holds up fairly well against many faster threats. As a preface, my main argument is that Lucario’s initial placement is too low, as the meta hasn’t shifted significantly enough for me to focus on that aspect.

Lucario @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Meteor Mash
- Extreme Speed

This set is excellent. We all know what it does honestly; I posted this set to establish what I believe is the best Lucario set right now. I prefer Jolly’s speed tier but the extra power of Adamant can be nice for Extreme Speed.

Anyway, Lucario deserves to be higher because its consistent damage output and many good matchups against the current meta staples make it fit in better with the A- inhabitants than those of B. Lucario’s dual STABs tear apart the majority of the meta after a boost, while Extreme Speed deals with Infernape, Latios, Alakazam, Manaphy, Breloom, and Starmie, provided they’re all weakened or Lucario has boosted.

Relative to Breloom, which is another prominent wallbreaker, I believe Lucario is slightly less viable. Breloom’s sets are less predictable, it’s usually stronger, and Spore is bullshit. However, Lucario’s niche, in comparison, is its higher speed tier (easily outpacing Heatran, Feraligatr, and Mamoswine) and better matchups against Skarmory, Tangrowth, Weavile, and fast Psychic-types. Basically, the two have comparable power and fill similar roles, but since Lucario isn’t quite as good as Breloom it warrants being a subrank lower.

I’ll probably write something about Yanmega here for C later. Specs tinted lens with dual stabs plus U-Turn is pretty nasty ngl.
I second this. Lucario's SD set is extremely dangerous, and matches well against top threats such as Scizor. All offensive teams appreciate a strong priority move in Espeed in order to revenge kill dangerous threats such as Latios, Starmie, Weavile, Alakazam, etc.
 
Question: I haven't played much BDSP yet, but I used to play DPP on Shoddy back in the day. I cannot see Gyarados on the list - is it that outclassed rn? It was a pretty major threat back then.
 

Lalaya

Banned deucer.
Question: I haven't played much BDSP yet, but I used to play DPP on Shoddy back in the day. I cannot see Gyarados on the list - is it that outclassed rn? It was a pretty major threat back then.
Unfortunately (for Gyarados) yeah
I can probably round it out to three major reasons:
- first one is the presence of Team Preview, so you can't throw a surprise Gyarados in the field and DD sweep with it;
- second, this metagame has both more offensive presence and defensive presence; Rotom forms are huge and they all can deal with Gyarados since they have a typing that isn't weak to Crunch, and the meta is generally fast enough to be able to stop a +1 Gyarados or force it to attack and trade with it (aside from needing 4 moves at the same time, since you'd want Ice Fang to beat Chomp and DNite, the latter being straight up unkillable thanks to Multiscale, EQ to deal with Magnezone and Crunch to deal with Starmie, Latios and Latias, and more), while on the other end of the spectrum Clefable and Quagsire are complete stops to it thanks to Unaware, and Stall has no issues whatsoever with it;
- Third reason, not only the meta isn't in need of its qualities, it's also very outclassed by other water breakers, the first and most important being DD Feraligatr, with a better speed tier, Sheer Force boosting its power, better coverage options (Waterfall, Ice Punch/Beam and Crunch deal with everyone, and Adamant LO Sheer Force Waterfall can beat both the Unaware mons and Skarmory), and a lack of a x4/SR weakness; other breakers finding more success are Azumarill (Band or Belly Drum), Cloyster (Shell Smash, which gives it +2 Atk, SpA and Speed and -1 Def and SDef), Manaphy (Tail Glow 3 Atks being the most optimal right now), and more
 
Mantine from B- to C, maybe even Un-Ranked.

Mantine's biggest role and main reason for seeing use was being one of the few reliable defensive answers to Manaphy. Now that the blue blob is gone it's lost it's premier niche. It's still a sp.def wall with recovery, defog, and haze with a water immunity, which is nice and still potentially has some place blanking mons like Empoleon and checking certain setup users like Clef. But it now faces stiffer competition the likes Quag, Gastro and other bulky waters who have greatly benefitted from the removal of Manaphy and challenge it much more for a spot on the defensive teams Mantine would want to anchor. I think most folks would agree a demotion to C tier is definitely reasonable, but tbh if it doesn't find a true niche in the meta in the coming weeks I think there's a very real chance this could mon could fall off the viability list entirely.

Update 2/12: It's been a couple of weeks since this and I have yet to see even a single Mantine pop up since Manaphy bit the bullet. Quag, Gastro and Slowbro have risen heavily in usage, not to mention Starmie and Rotom-Wash who both continue to see tons of as well. Poliwrath also still maintains its superior niche over it on stall, edging it out for a slot there. I've even noticed an influx of Milotic being experimented by a fair number of players recently, which is another - even more direct competition for Mantine as a bulky water with recovery and haze. Mantine's competition has never been higher.

At this point I think it's completely fallen out of favor in OU, and probably could be removed from the viability list entirely.
 
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:dp/Drapion:
UR-> C
Drapion has several things that one might find appealing: STAB Knock Off, a not terrible speed tier, and a type that resists both of Gengar's STABs. Given how dominant Gengar is, you'd probably assume that the main draw of this mon is sponging hits from Gengar. Well- not really. Drapion doesn't take FB well and starts looking less secure against Plot variants; I also don't think full SpD variants are worth seriously running since Drapion is too weak without investment, making it a poor match against the overall meta. No, this set is what I think makes it worthy of at least some ranking:

Drapion @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab
- Earthquake
- Ice Fang


While Drapion's speed tier is normally okay, Scarf gives it the boost to get the jump on the faster threats of the meta like Azelf, Infernape and non-Scarf variants of Gengar and Latios. Drapion's STABs are very good, with EQ to smack Steels and Ice Fang catches Garchomp if it hard switches in; originally had TSpikes in the fourth slot but realized TSpikes are garbage (look at S and A ranks and tell me TSpike is seriously worth bringing). And while not the bulkiest, Drapion's typing and solid Def do let it take hits in a pinch. Drapion is not strong enough to barrel through everything (unless you get Sniper crit, see Replay 1), but it is really good at softening teams so your offensive partners can break more easily, as seen in these replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1500736983-lgjchenu667k28s9ebchlw5h3j3ipt4pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1500820675-u9ho3nrcd3h46u6yzvfpfb8ukjse8cgpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1500829804

Scarf Drapion is a serious option on offense due to its ability to remove faster threats and weaken non-defensive mons into KO range for its teammates; that said, it does have enough issues so that I will only be nomming C rank for now.

:dp/Lucario:
B-> B+
Other nom I'd like to make, this thing is insanely hard to switch into. Maybe stall doesn't have a problem with this guy, but I've found that I often have to sacrifice at least one mon in dealing with this thing, as things rarely get to survive two hits from this guy. Washtom takes Mash just fine but doesn't like follow- up CC. Gliscor needs heavy phys Def or it gets screwed over by Mash Atk raise. Scizor does not take CC, Gengar does not take Mash. Lati needs to be healthy to take ESpeed. And that's with the fact I've really only seen physical LO on ladder; stuff like Slowbro could come in handy, but better hope it's not the one NP Luc. B is definitely a bit low imo.

:dp/Rotom-Wash:
Agree with H Momento this thing should be S-. No matter how I build, this thing is always somehow the most annoying thing to deal with, even if you specifically prep for it. If you don't have Grass move Leftovers is a pain, and even the two OU Grasses aren't always good answers to it (neither takes NP well, Scarf can ruin Loom with Wisp). Definitely a mon you have to account for in builder, and even then you'd better have a backup.

:dp/Dragonite:
Agree with Sputnik, you need very careful counterplay against DDance. A- at least.
 
this thread is dead lmao also gengar is banned take them off the viability ranking now plz

Anyways, Here are the noms that i would like to make.

:bw/slowbro: A- -> A+
It's pretty obvious that Slowbro is a notorious bulky water and it is even better now that gengar has left the meta. I'd argue that Calm Mind Slowbro is a lot more viable as well as it's pretty obvious that Slowbro is going to be making it on more teams.

:bw/lucario: B -> A-
Now that gengar is gone, This thing is going to be Espeeding more freely now, and i have found out that this thing is actually quite scary. a set of Adament swords dance with justified is a set that ive been seeing a lot

Lucario @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance
- Meteor Mash

This thing kills a lot, and can switch into weavile's that aren't running brick break and kill a lot of things faster then it with the help of plus 2 or even plus 3 espeed and anything slower will drop to its stab moves.

:bw/dragonite: B+ -> A-
Mostly the same reason as lucario with Espeed. Dragon Dance/banded/mixed sets give Dragonite a lot of versatility to tear up a lot of this meta which is something you all already know and it can use espeed more freely now.
 

Eve

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This is both a nom and also just me talking about a Pokemon I like using and think more people should use

:ss/milotic:
UR -> B+ minimum
Milotic @ Leftovers
Ability: Marvel Scale
EVs: 252 HP / 248 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Haze
- Recover
- Ice Beam

This mon is a seriously solid balance pick right now. Want a longevity-focused answer to Banded Weavile, Feraligatr, Gliscor, Heatran, Belly Drum Azumarill, non-Band Tyranitar, SD Scizor, and Salamence, that can also act as a helpful tool in handling CM Latios/Latias, Garchomp, Dragonite, Infernape, Starmie, Mamoswine, and fringe setup sweepers like Cloyster, Blastoise, and Gyarados? What about all of that while also being a fantastic status absorber thanks to Marvel Scale, and threatening almost everything with Scald burns? That's a pretty good list of things for one mon to do. Milotic manages to stand out from its defensive Water-type competition very easily thanks to its great mixed bulk, reliable recovery, and neutral typing that lets it resist Ice-type moves and take Dark-type moves neutrally. Marvel Scale, as mentioned, lets Milotic happily absorb status moves to become borderline unkillable, especially opposing Scald burns or Will-o-Wisps from Rotom if you're a gambler. Give it a try!

Here are some teams I've been using it on! They aren't perfect but they've done decently on ladder.
:clefable::salamence::scizor::heatran::milotic::tangrowth: Defensive Salamence Balance
:jirachi::milotic::tangrowth::gliscor::scizor::clefable: Jirachi Stall

And here are two replays. I've had plenty of good games with Milotic but I always forget to save replays so dude trust me.
 

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